Q:
Let me describe myself. I am a good person. I never, ever, "trolled" anybody in my life. The only times that I actually try to harm someone, is if that person was an asshole that harmed me for no reason. In my definition, revenge is not sin. If someone murdered your parents for fun, I say it's ok to punch that person hard in the face. Also, for me, pleasure is not sin, unless you harm someone. Watching porn won't really hurt people. Sleeping with girls is natural. It's what nature intended to do. If God defines it as a sin, he would be contradicting his own laws of nature. (But it's not really his, cause I believe he doesn't exist)
That is nothing more than a moral issue. Because it's "immoral" it's a sin, even though it's natural and doesn't harm anyone. Calling it a sin is another way of controlling people.
As with many ancient religions, pleasure is sin. It's always about punishing yourself and worship. That's so an ancient thing. People just worship and "apologize for being human"...
In my definition, there are people besides "Jesus" that are sinless. If they do harm someone, it's only a response, not sin. If you let a bully keep hurting you, that's dumb. So we get revenge and let him know not to mess with us. That's not a sin that's the smart thing to do.
So being human doesn't automatically make you a sinner. There are saints around the world.
On to the subject:
You say I have a narrow mind, but I'm only using logic and reason, what really makes sense. You on the other hand, use imagination and faith that you have no proof of being true.
Also, God IS all-mighty right? He could do ANYthing. He could create the universe in a split second if he wanted to. He is God after all. But yeah he has to (needs to) do things primitively and savagely (kills people). That's exactly the kind of thing the primitive authors would think up.
You can't just say that there is a force greater than we can imagine who was the source point for the entire universe. You can't just say that there is that Godly power and presence and everything and Bible power and stuff. (Yeah I'm not good with English) You can't just look at the Bible and ignore the primitive ignorant things and claim there's God's power behind it. That's all opinion.
You have NO proof.
Because God is godly, you think it should be ok to say all about that. Yeah. But how do you know it's true?
You haven't even seen pure evidence that God even exist for everything you've just said to be true. You can't use what you said as evidence for God's existence.
You have no evidence. The world around you is not evidence. Watch this video that proves no God ever made Earth. I want you to try to disprove it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdeIYnlVWIM
You have no evidence. But I do. You can't prove that the logic-defying, immoral Bible(it approves of murder and rape etc.) has God's power behind it. But I can prove it is just nonsense. I only see primitive writings that doesn't make real sense. We see all these contradictions and ideas that are untrue. The Bible itself is the proof of that.
Even so, you want to read it illiterately and interpret it however you want to say it's right and ignore the contradictions.
So let's talk about the immoral things about it that you really can't deny.
How about Exodus 21: 20 21
20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Not only is depriving a human life of freedom allowed to do, but beating them up too is allowed, since they're "property." How do you justify that?
Also, it's not impossible for the primitive men to control the people. They can just say God exists, and people believe. And if not, they would go to hell. There's a command in the Bible to kill nonbelievers. Controlled by fear.
There are ones who didn't buy into that and were atheists. In fact, the number of atheists is growing. That is because, in fact the intelligence has been increasing since 2,000 years ago. In fact, atheists have higher IQ's than Christians. Bill Gates and Einstein are definitely not Christians. Scientists, university professors and the like are atheists. We use our logic and reasoning, that's why we're atheists.
(I'm sorry if anything I said might have offended you.)
Good thing you have stayed this long in the debate.
A:
Hey dude,
Thanks for your patience. Just got back in town from my brothers wedding back home, outside Seattle. God has been moving in my life and opening doors I never even contemplated. I'll share that with you some time. But it was rad, we just cooked food and drank beer for a week.
I absolutely believe that you're a good dude. And I see what you mean with your train of thought on the sin subject. I use to believe very much the same way. Please understand that our logic and understanding of right and wrong is not like that of God. So just because we believe something to not be a sin, because of our own understanding of things, doesn't mean it's not. God is good. In him there is no evil. He is the definitive source for wisdom regarding right and wrong.
Don't get me wrong. I loved meeting and sleeping with girls. It's fun. It felt good and hurt no one. Fucking girls is natural. And it is.
But it was hurting someone. Sex isn't sin. Using it as it wasn't intended is. It was hurting me. Our sexuality is one of the raddest things God gave us. That's why there's such an uproar about it. That's why it's such a hot topic. But it's misuse gets in the way of proper relationship with the Lord. He wants us to live like him. Like Jesus.
If someone murdered my parents I'd want to kill them. I probably would if it was in the moment or something. I'm only human. I'd be sinning but I wouldn't care. I would never want to be in that position though and I'd hate to kill a human being. I pray that if I ever was a situation the Lord would give me pause and provide me a better way. If not, I'd kill 'em. I'd repent. He'd forgive.
God isn't contradicting himself in any way. Natural laws or any other. He created us to have relationship with him. That relationship was modeled in the life of Jesus. Just because we choose to think that we know what is or isn't right doesn't mean that our beliefs are correct, as God see's it. It might not make sense to us initially but as relationship with the Lord grows those discrepancies begin to make sense as we see God work in our lives.
Jesus was the epitome of self control. That's the shit. There's nothing cooler then a dude who's always composed. Regardless of situation. Jesus was that dude. Proper relationship with God. That's what he wants from us. So using the barometer of what 'feels good' in regards to sin will lead you way off base. It didn't work for me.
Giving in to anger or lust or the spirit of revenge is only human. But we're not only human. God didn't make us that way. We're body and spirit. And while something might be physically edifying, it can also be spiritually troublesome. You don't have to believe me but living like Jesus is just better. It feels better. Shit, I started trying to live like Jesus before I ever came to truly know God. And even in that in between when I still wasn't sure and was still asking questions, it felt better.
Yes, being human does automatically make you a sinner. We were born into it brother. It sucks but it's true. Just look at the world around us. We're soaked in sin. Remember. God is good, in him there is no evil. Sin does not reside in him. Not even a little bit. We are, by matter of birth, born into sin. We're sinful dude. As good as we act and as good as we try to be, we can never be perfect. Mind or body. Only God is. Only Jesus was. And only through salvation through Christ can we have our sinful nature wiped away. Only then can we have proper relationship with Creator of the Universe.
Ya get it?
This is isn't something I think or believe. This is something I know.
..The Subject..
Yes, narrow mind. And I don't mean that in a belittling way dude. It's just, you're still locked in to the mindset that human logic and reason is the only 'reality' that exists. Your inability to even acknowledge the possibility of more proves your brains width. I get it, I was the same way at one point.
No offense.
Yes God is almighty. Yes he can do anything. He could do it in a split second. Why didn't he? I don't know. I like that I don't know. I no longer worry about the small questions. I have a bunch of questions I'm gonna get answers to once this physical life is over. I mean the Universe is unbelievable dude. I'd trust that our God knows exactly what he's doing.
I can say those things, not because they're in a book. But because I've witnessed them in my own life on a personal level that lets me know that God is real.
There were 'primitive' things in The Bible. By our Western standards in 2010, they are primitive. We're more advanced in many ways. Most people say primitive because they use our knowledge of science and technology and the truths we've learned because of them as a bar by which to gauge advancements in societies. They were every bit as smart as we are, but that intelligence manifested itself in very different ways.
You're right, I have no proof. Neither do you.
(If you do, please forward)
I know it's true because I know him.
You keep talking about evidence. I can only speak of my personal walk with God. Real life shit. But again, you have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary.
You watch a lot of internet videos made my people with fuzzy logic. Relying on their own intelligence to speak to the existence of God. I love his description of God 'a sentient intelligence that rose to a level of a God'. Ha. God is so much bigger then this man's limited logic. This earth is soaked in sin. It goes back to the beginning. Bad shit happens here. Human induced and natural. His argument regarding the sun shows his basic misunderstandings. The sun is perfectly placed. We can talk about this if you'd like. I'm not going to go through all of his points. Because his arguments rely on strictly opinions and misinformation. He also doesn't really know how perfectly balanced our planet is. What's with this immediacy that people expect of God? He is infinite, we are infinite. What are a few billion years to an infinite God? It's a fraction of a second when compared to eternity.
Again, you've still yet to prove anything.
I read illiterately? Hmm.
You have a misconception of what slavery was in the near eastern cultures of the OT. Slavery in America was a horrible and dehumanizing effort to turn human beings into commodities with money, i.e. power/status being the end result. Whether it was to pick cotton or harvest sugar African slaves in the Americas were turned into machines. Our God is not an oppressive God. Oppression does not come from nor reside in him.
'Slavery' in the OT was very different. It differed in that the main motivation was economic relief of poverty. 'Slavery' more times than not would have been initiated by the slave, not the slave owner. And most uses were domestic in nature. (Although oppressive State slavery did exist, and individuals were used for building projects)
Most records indicate that the people sold into slavery were debt slaves. Sold by a parent or relative or in many cases they themselves. Read "History of Ancient Near Eastern Law".
They were treated as hired hands, not slaves as we know them. They were to be relieved of servitude after six years. When relieve, liberally supplied with grain, wine, and livestock. Every 50 years all servants were relieved. It was a very different culture than ours.
Regarding the beatings. God permitted slavery to exist in both the OT and NT time periods. This doesn't mean that it was a God-ordained system. Slavery was the development of fallen man, not God. Regardless, God allowed it to exist the same way he allows other things to exist that he doesn't approve of: murder, lying, rape. It's sin. Just because it was there doesn't mean it came from God. These are old testament Laws working within a fallen world that had yet to receive a savior. A perfect example of a human being. And one day sin will be eradicated.
There is no commandment in The Bible to outright kill nonbelievers.
Please don't bring into question IQ's and intelligence levels into this conversation. By doing so you'll only reduce yours. Some of the smartest men to ever have lived believed in a Creator. Some of the smartest men didn't. This isn't an intellectual reality, it's a spiritual one. And intelligence isn't at the forefront of the experience. Although, everyone is made unique. Some more intelligent than others. God meets you where you are.
Intellectual intelligence is arbitrary when it comes to the God debate.
Anyways, I assure you my IQ is much higher than yours. No offense. Just sayin'.
Again dude, don't worry about offending me. I appreciate your patience while I was away. Look forward to discussing more.
