Round 10

Q:

     Let me describe myself. I am a good person. I never, ever, "trolled" anybody in my life. The only times that I actually try to harm someone, is if that person was an asshole that harmed me for no reason. In my definition, revenge is not sin. If someone murdered your parents for fun, I say it's ok to punch that person hard in the face. Also, for me, pleasure is not sin, unless you harm someone. Watching porn won't really hurt people. Sleeping with girls is natural. It's what nature intended to do. If God defines it as a sin, he would be contradicting his own laws of nature. (But it's not really his, cause I believe he doesn't exist)

That is nothing more than a moral issue. Because it's "immoral" it's a sin, even though it's natural and doesn't harm anyone. Calling it a sin is another way of controlling people.

As with many ancient religions, pleasure is sin. It's always about punishing yourself and worship. That's so an ancient thing. People just worship and "apologize for being human"...

In my definition, there are people besides "Jesus" that are sinless. If they do harm someone, it's only a response, not sin. If you let a bully keep hurting you, that's dumb. So we get revenge and let him know not to mess with us. That's not a sin that's the smart thing to do.

So being human doesn't automatically make you a sinner. There are saints around the world.

On to the subject:

You say I have a narrow mind, but I'm only using logic and reason, what really makes sense. You on the other hand, use imagination and faith that you have no proof of being true.

Also, God IS all-mighty right? He could do ANYthing. He could create the universe in a split second if he wanted to. He is God after all. But yeah he has to (needs to) do things primitively and savagely (kills people). That's exactly the kind of thing the primitive authors would think up.

You can't just say that there is a force greater than we can imagine who was the source point for the entire universe. You can't just say that there is that Godly power and presence and everything and Bible power and stuff. (Yeah I'm not good with English) You can't just look at the Bible and ignore the primitive ignorant things and claim there's God's power behind it. That's all opinion.

You have NO proof.

Because God is godly, you think it should be ok to say all about that. Yeah. But how do you know it's true?

You haven't even seen pure evidence that God even exist for everything you've just said to be true. You can't use what you said as evidence for God's existence.

You have no evidence. The world around you is not evidence. Watch this video that proves no God ever made Earth. I want you to try to disprove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdeIYnlVWIM

You have no evidence. But I do. You can't prove that the logic-defying, immoral Bible(it approves of murder and rape etc.) has God's power behind it. But I can prove it is just nonsense. I only see primitive writings that doesn't make real sense. We see all these contradictions and ideas that are untrue. The Bible itself is the proof of that.

Even so, you want to read it illiterately and interpret it however you want to say it's right and ignore the contradictions.

So let's talk about the immoral things about it that you really can't deny.

How about Exodus 21: 20 21
20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Not only is depriving a human life of freedom allowed to do, but beating them up too is allowed, since they're "property." How do you justify that?

Also, it's not impossible for the primitive men to control the people. They can just say God exists, and people believe. And if not, they would go to hell. There's a command in the Bible to kill nonbelievers. Controlled by fear.

There are ones who didn't buy into that and were atheists. In fact, the number of atheists is growing. That is because, in fact the intelligence has been increasing since 2,000 years ago. In fact, atheists have higher IQ's than Christians. Bill Gates and Einstein are definitely not Christians. Scientists, university professors and the like are atheists. We use our logic and reasoning, that's why we're atheists.

(I'm sorry if anything I said might have offended you.)

Good thing you have stayed this long in the debate.


A:
     
       Hey dude,

Thanks for your patience. Just got back in town from my brothers wedding back home, outside Seattle. God has been moving in my life and opening doors I never even contemplated. I'll share that with you some time. But it was rad, we just cooked food and drank beer for a week.

I absolutely believe that you're a good dude. And I see what you mean with your train of thought on the sin subject. I use to believe very much the same way. Please understand that our logic and understanding of right and wrong is not like that of God. So just because we believe something to not be a sin, because of our own understanding of things, doesn't mean it's not. God is good. In him there is no evil. He is the definitive source for wisdom regarding right and wrong.

Don't get me wrong. I loved meeting and sleeping with girls. It's fun. It felt good and hurt no one. Fucking girls is natural. And it is.

But it was hurting someone. Sex isn't sin. Using it as it wasn't intended is. It was hurting me. Our sexuality is one of the raddest things God gave us. That's why there's such an uproar about it. That's why it's such a hot topic. But it's misuse gets in the way of proper relationship with the Lord. He wants us to live like him. Like Jesus.

If someone murdered my parents I'd want to kill them. I probably would if it was in the moment or something. I'm only human. I'd be sinning but I wouldn't care. I would never want to be in that position though and I'd hate to kill a human being. I pray that if I ever was a situation the Lord would give me pause and provide me a better way. If not, I'd kill 'em. I'd repent. He'd forgive.

God isn't contradicting himself in any way. Natural laws or any other. He created us to have relationship with him. That relationship was modeled in the life of Jesus. Just because we choose to think that we know what is or isn't right doesn't mean that our beliefs are correct, as God see's it. It might not make sense to us initially but as relationship with the Lord grows those discrepancies begin to make sense as we see God work in our lives.

Jesus was the epitome of self control. That's the shit. There's nothing cooler then a dude who's always composed. Regardless of situation. Jesus was that dude. Proper relationship with God. That's what he wants from us. So using the barometer of what 'feels good' in regards to sin will lead you way off base. It didn't work for me.

Giving in to anger or lust or the spirit of revenge is only human. But we're not only human. God didn't make us that way. We're body and spirit. And while something might be physically edifying, it can also be spiritually troublesome. You don't have to believe me but living like Jesus is just better. It feels better. Shit, I started trying to live like Jesus before I ever came to truly know God. And even in that in between when I still wasn't sure and was still asking questions, it felt better.

Yes, being human does automatically make you a sinner. We were born into it brother. It sucks but it's true. Just look at the world around us. We're soaked in sin. Remember. God is good, in him there is no evil. Sin does not reside in him. Not even a little bit. We are, by matter of birth, born into sin. We're sinful dude. As good as we act and as good as we try to be, we can never be perfect. Mind or body. Only God is. Only Jesus was. And only through salvation through Christ can we have our sinful nature wiped away. Only then can we have proper relationship with Creator of the Universe.

Ya get it?

This is isn't something I think or believe. This is something I know.

..The Subject..

Yes, narrow mind. And I don't mean that in a belittling way dude. It's just, you're still locked in to the mindset that human logic and reason is the only 'reality' that exists. Your inability to even acknowledge the possibility of more proves your brains width. I get it, I was the same way at one point.

No offense.

Yes God is almighty. Yes he can do anything. He could do it in a split second. Why didn't he? I don't know. I like that I don't know. I no longer worry about the small questions. I have a bunch of questions I'm gonna get answers to once this physical life is over. I mean the Universe is unbelievable dude. I'd trust that our God knows exactly what he's doing.

I can say those things, not because they're in a book. But because I've witnessed them in my own life on a personal level that lets me know that God is real.
There were 'primitive' things in The Bible. By our Western standards in 2010, they are primitive. We're more advanced in many ways. Most people say primitive because they use our knowledge of science and technology and the truths we've learned because of them as a bar by which to gauge advancements in societies. They were every bit as smart as we are, but that intelligence manifested itself in very different ways.

You're right, I have no proof. Neither do you.
(If you do, please forward)

I know it's true because I know him.

You keep talking about evidence. I can only speak of my personal walk with God. Real life shit. But again, you have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary.

You watch a lot of internet videos made my people with fuzzy logic. Relying on their own intelligence to speak to the existence of God. I love his description of God 'a sentient intelligence that rose to a level of a God'. Ha. God is so much bigger then this man's limited logic. This earth is soaked in sin. It goes back to the beginning. Bad shit happens here. Human induced and natural. His argument regarding the sun shows his basic misunderstandings. The sun is perfectly placed. We can talk about this if you'd like. I'm not going to go through all of his points. Because his arguments rely on strictly opinions and misinformation. He also doesn't really know how perfectly balanced our planet is. What's with this immediacy that people expect of God? He is infinite, we are infinite. What are a few billion years to an infinite God? It's a fraction of a second when compared to eternity.

Again, you've still yet to prove anything.

I read illiterately? Hmm.

You have a misconception of what slavery was in the near eastern cultures of the OT. Slavery in America was a horrible and dehumanizing effort to turn human beings into commodities with money, i.e. power/status being the end result. Whether it was to pick cotton or harvest sugar African slaves in the Americas were turned into machines. Our God is not an oppressive God. Oppression does not come from nor reside in him.

'Slavery' in the OT was very different. It differed in that the main motivation was economic relief of poverty. 'Slavery' more times than not would have been initiated by the slave, not the slave owner. And most uses were domestic in nature. (Although oppressive State slavery did exist, and individuals were used for building projects)

Most records indicate that the people sold into slavery were debt slaves. Sold by a parent or relative or in many cases they themselves. Read "History of Ancient Near Eastern Law".

They were treated as hired hands, not slaves as we know them. They were to be relieved of servitude after six years. When relieve, liberally supplied with grain, wine, and livestock. Every 50 years all servants were relieved. It was a very different culture than ours.

Regarding the beatings. God permitted slavery to exist in both the OT and NT time periods. This doesn't mean that it was a God-ordained system. Slavery was the development of fallen man, not God. Regardless, God allowed it to exist the same way he allows other things to exist that he doesn't approve of: murder, lying, rape. It's sin. Just because it was there doesn't mean it came from God. These are old testament Laws working within a fallen world that had yet to receive a savior. A perfect example of a human being. And one day sin will be eradicated.

There is no commandment in The Bible to outright kill nonbelievers.

Please don't bring into question IQ's and intelligence levels into this conversation. By doing so you'll only reduce yours. Some of the smartest men to ever have lived believed in a Creator. Some of the smartest men didn't. This isn't an intellectual reality, it's a spiritual one. And intelligence isn't at the forefront of the experience. Although, everyone is made unique. Some more intelligent than others. God meets you where you are.

Intellectual intelligence is arbitrary when it comes to the God debate.

Anyways, I assure you my IQ is much higher than yours. No offense. Just sayin'.

Again dude, don't worry about offending me. I appreciate your patience while I was away. Look forward to discussing more.
 

Round 9

Q:
     Usually, Christians take whatever information, and form it in their own way to make it to their favor. In your case, your interpretation. You don't really have proof that because the people are of ancient times, it's ok for their stories to not make scientific sense. That the Bible is 100% true, even though there is a huge amounts of contradictions, and that it completely contradicts scientific reality.
You don't have proof.

Open your mind. Accept the possibility that God doesn't exist (unless you have undeniable proof that you could show me). You can't rule out the possibility that the authors are really are just ignorant men trying to rule people through their Bible.

It's definitely possible that they are just men that decided to write the Bible, making up stories about God, to control people into behaving however they want.

The evidence is in favor of that possibility. The Bible has nothing but stuff that ancient men would write. There is nothing miraculous about the writings in there. Everything there is just what the men with their limited knowledge would write.

>God needing to create the universe day by day, when he could have just done it in a split second.
>God having human features adapted for survival on Earth.
>God having to use dirt, instead of just making man magically appear if he wanted to.
>God having to flood people, instead of just making them magically disappear if he wanted to.
>God needing to test people's faith, even though he is all-knowing.
>Angels that are obviously a mix of man and bird that came from the imagination.
>Talking snakes and bushes.

These are just ungodly ways of what a God would do. He should be able to make anything happen by command. He can give Moses information by willing it, but no he has to primitively be a talking bush to talk to Moses.

You see, the evidence points to the Bible being just a book written by primitive men, talking about ungodly things.

Part 2:
The police found her body, and the DNA's on her body matched Joe and Bob's.
When shown to both of them, Bob pleads guilty and makes most of the blame on Joe, and Joe does the same. The mom still insists on faith and says they were just framed.
-Ma'am, we have video evidence of them admitting that he did it.
-What?! No way! They're good boys just have faith!
-Faith doesn't prove anything. We have REAL scientific evidence that Bob and Joe are immoral, cruel, committed rape and murder, and aren't good. They admitted it themselves, not framed. Nothing you can do.
-No I'll just ignore all the evidence and science and blindly believe.
-Believe what you want, it's common sense they're guilty, they even admitted it. Geez.

Sorry about the disturbing story, but I just made it so it can relate. The Bible has a lot of rape and murder, that's why it's in the story.

About the very ungodly things, yeah I copied a lot but here's a long list that I copied off someone (you will see just how "godly" and "merciful" God is):

Ritual Human and Animal Sacrifice

God sends himself to die for himself to allow himself to change a rule he created himself. (Jesus, New Testament)
Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God (Genesis 22:1-18)
Kill first-born humans and animals (Exodus 13:2)
More human sacrifice (Leviticus 27:28-29)
Jephthah Burns His Daughter (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)
God Commands Burning Humans (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Josiah and Human Sacrifice (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT) (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
Human Sacrifice (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Child Sacrifice (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.)
Humans are Fuel for Fire (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)
Burn Nonbelievers (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Rape

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Slavery

Slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
How Hebrew slaves are to be treated (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
It is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
You can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slavery is still approved of in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
Beating slaves who didn't know they did any wrong (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Murder

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
More of Samson's Murders (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)


A:
   Yo,

That's all anybody can do with the books of The Bible.  Read and interpret.  The Bible might not be written in scientific terms, did you actually expect it would be?  These are ancient writings.  Just because they are so, doesn't make them invalid.  You continually hold up The Bible against science.  They're not opponents.  The Bible speaks the Truth of God.  Science discovers the truth within this physical world.  They've been tied together from the beginning.

Again, which contradiction, specifically, would you like to talk about?

Open my mind?  Let's compare minds.  You believe only in the evidence that we can see/know/understand, in the here and now.  You believe only in what modern day science has told us about our universe.  You have no faith outside of what we 'know'.  Your mind is quite narrow.  I believe that science is helping us to define the how of the creation process.  I believe that there is a force greater than we can imagine who was the source point for the entire universe.  I believe in dimensions of reality that we cannot see nor experience during this life time.  I believe we are a creation.  My mind is blow wide open.  I've looked at the evidence  I've been searching for truth for a long time.  It's not something you find within our intellectual mind alone.  It's a heart thing.  I've said that multiple times now.  I would suggest you open your mind.

If the authors of The Bible conspired to fabricate the whole thing to control human beings then that would have taken a power that those so called unintelligent, ancient men,  couldn't have possessed. 

There is nothing miraculous in The Bible?  Have you read it? 

(I will mention that you have yet to bring any real evidence to the table regarding The Bible and it's validity.  You've basically been giving me your opinion on the matter.)

Did you really expect an ancient text to go through the exact 'how' of creation.  molecule by molecule?  Also, if everything just appeared in a split second, it would violate the natural laws that are in the universe.  Everything comes from something.  I believe creation of this universe was a process.  Not an instant appearance.  If we saw a car in the middle of the woods, and we'd never seen a car before in our lives, we would assume that someone put it there and that it just didn't appear.  It might be a foreign object to us but we would see that it has complex parts that show design and skill, and required great knowledge of math and physics to be able to have created.  We would assume that it was designed and manufactured then put in place in the woods, by someone.  We wouldn't assume that it just 'magically appeared'.   The universe/humans are far more complex than any man made machine.  The smartest scientists in the world have no clue how DNA knows how to replicate the same genetic code over and over.  We have no clue how the universe is held together.  These are things that cannot be understood by science yet are fundamental to making an informed decision on the existence of the universe. 

Your points.

-See above
-See my previous email
-Could be literal or figurative language.  Either way, we are of this earth.
  and in the end one's viewpoint on this subject doesn't matter.
-Magically disappear?
-'God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.  Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.' James 1:13-14
-Angels are man birds huh?
-Why not talking snakes and bushes?  Is it possible that if there was a creator of the universe, of all things, is it possible then that he could talk through a snake or a bush?  If he wanted to?

What is ungodly exactly?  Just because you don't understand it?

Again, what evidence are you talking about?  You haven't given any.

Part 2:

Yeah, your story is falling apart.  Yesterday it was suppose to convict faith, today what is it suppose to convey?  That because there is violence in The Bible that it the Truth of God?  There's always been violence in this world.  Why would that book be different?

Lets refrain from copy and pasting a huge lists of Bible passages.  If you'd like to discuss one specifically, let's go for it.  But I'm not going to respond to a huge, overwhelming list all at once.  I'd be happy to go through them one by one though if you'd like.

For today I'll stick to the first one. (Jesus, New testament)  Then you can let me know which you'd like to tackle next.

I'll paraphrase your question:  "Jesus, what's the point of it all?"

First off, I don't know what rule you're referring to. 

Sin.  Sin is the point.  As complex as this whole topic is, it can be stripped down to it's most basic elements to find the intent of The Bible and the God message.   It's good vs. evil.  Light versus dark.  It goes back to the very beginning.  It's much bigger than you or I and to expect to intellectually understand it all in it's entirety is a lesson in futility. 

This is how I relate to the Jesus message.  When I finally took a step back and took a look at the world around me.  The world we live in.  Taking into account the immensity of our universe and the complexity of the foundations on which the our physical world is built, I came to the conclusion that there was, without a doubt, a creator.   If there's a creator, so what?  It makes sense to me that if there was a creator then that creator would want some form of relationship with the creation. 

The Judeo-Christian God of The Bible is perfect.  He is pure love.  In him there is no evil, no sin.  Only good comes from him.  So says the scriptures.  (As of this point I still only had an intellectual understanding of how things work)  God created us in his image on this planet to just hang out and live in this perfect world in relationship with him.  He created us in his image intellect, free will, all of it.  It was that intellect and free will that introduced sin into this world.  It tainted the perfect creation.  Man was screwed.  The ability to live in perfect harmony with God was ruined.  So says the scriptures.

Fast forward through the old testament, men evolve socially and spread out.  Men moves further and further away from the source point of creation(God) and more and more evil and sin is introduced into the world because of it.  You see a people with a faith and hope in God, with no form of direct salvation.  Their ability to be in relationship with God is dependent upon upholding the Law, to live by the commandments of God.  Now this whole time there has been prophetic writings regarding a coming messiah.  A king for the Jews.  These divinely inspired men foretold the coming of a man that will free God's people.  Establish a Kingdom.  This is Judaism in a nutshell.  They believe that the Messiah is yet to come.  So says the scriptures.

The New Testament and the account of Jesus is a description of the life, ministry, and death of a Rabbi who claimed to be the salvation for all men, the messiah.  He lectured on and demonstrated what It was to have a proper relationship with the creator as well as well as with each other.  The creation.  Who was this man?  Was he just a teacher?  Was he a prophet?  Was he crazy?  Man has been debating this since Jesus walked on this rock. 

The way I saw it was this.  The Old Testament is full of prophecies describing who the messiah will be and what he'll accomplish.  It's part of the point of the collection.  The number of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled during his life time(a good many he had no control over), based on a MIT study, is a mathematical improbability.  He fulfilled too many for it to be a simple coincidence.  Also, when you look at the life of Jesus, what do you see?  A description of a man who wasn't like you and I.  A man who lived a perfect life.  Sinless.  He lived his life in communion with God and treated others and loved others in a way only God could.  His instruction on how to live in this world and treat people is, without a doubt, the ideal way of existing.   Here is a guy that defied the social customs and norms of the time.  It's part of what got him killed. 

God is perfect and his creation was perfect.  Sin entered on account of our free will actions.   The story of God and Jesus is direct and complete in it's simplicity.  God communicated to his creation that someone is coming who will set them free from the sin of the world.  His coming was foretold.  Jesus arrives fitting the description and fulfilling prophesy.  His life was devoid of the sinful things that plague guys like you and I.  Even the small things that only we know about.  Then this sinless dude was murdered because he spoke of the good news of the Kingdom of God.  He took the sin of all man on him.  Your sin, my sin.  Everyone's.  A simple teacher, sinless, didn't put up a fight and allowed himself to be tortured and murdered because the sins of the world had to be atoned for, so God could once again have relationship with his creation.   And the ability to to be in proper relationship with God required us to acknowledge that we're human and sinful in nature.  We were born into it. We have to willfully acknowledge that our sins have been taken care of.  Paid for.  God is perfect and no sin is in him.  We can't be a part of his kingdom with our present sin in tact.  Jesus was perfect.  Jesus was God.  He took our personal sin and basically said 'I got your back'.  'I took care of it for you'. 

Some see Jesus as simply a great teacher.  A prophet.  One who was in touch with the universe.  I disagree.   For me there are only three options.  As C.S.Lewis put it, he's either 'a lunatic, lying, or the Lord.'  Was he crazy?  Well, first, he never acts as one who has lost their faculties.  He performed miracles amongst the people.  His peers admit this.  It's corroborated in archaeological evidence.  Even his detractors frustratingly admitted this.  Also, the Messiah required fulfillment of Jewish prophesy.  A good number of which would have been outside of human control.  Those alone can disqualify his insanity.  Some say he's a great prophet.  Absolutely he was.  Was he only a great prophet?  Absolutely not.  If he were strictly a great prophet, that would make him a liar.  He himself claimed to be the Messiah.  He claim that through him you can reach the Father.  If he was only a great prophet he'd be lying and in sin and therefore not of God.  He can't be a prophet and a blasphemer.  That would contradict God.

When you take into account the entire life of Jesus as well as the death/ressurection you find a simple and perfect path to God.  It's not hard.  It's straight forward.  Even a child grasps the concepts.(That's actually how God wants us to approach him)  The hard part is overcoming our own ego/intellect.  The hard part is being able to get out of the here/now head space and try and look at things (as best as we can) from God's perspective.  God is perfect, he physically came to this planet to show us how to be, lived a perfect life, he was rejected by the establishment, he died to destroy the power of sin.  It's so simple.  Every other path to God relies too heavily on our own actions and intellect.  I don't trust my actions and intellect.  I'm soaked in sin.  We all are, and all God wants is for us to get rid of it.

It leaves one option for me.  He is the Messiah The Bible speaks about. 

Now that's all well and good.  It's a nice story, but is it real?  That's a question I asked myself over and over.  I understood the Jesus message intellectually, but what did that mean for me?  Was it ancient near-eastern bullshit?  Fairy tails of the old world attempting to explain the creation to a primitive people? 

I decided to try and start living in the manner that Jesus did.  I tried to apply the teaching of Jesus on a daily basis to see if there was any weight to it all.  I figured, if it wasn't real and was all a bunch of crap, then there would be no discernible difference in my life.  I mean, I've always been a 'good person'  I'm not a felon or an asshole.  I'm a fun loving dude.  Lots of friends.  Great family.  But what if it was real?  I figured if there was something to this God thing, and it was the Truth, then I would be aware of what's going on and have confirmation that this God thing is real. 

I started cutting things out of my life that I enjoyed but that God taught were rooted in sin.  I didn't have a come to Jesus moment.  People talk being being convicted and touched by God in a moment of divine revelation.  They experience God and believe, then change.  That's not me.  I've been searching for the truth of this universe for a long time.  Most of my adult life was filled with question about God and science and the origins of man and those implication for my life.  This consumed the great majority of my mental time.  I wanted the same answers that men have been asking for thousands of years.  I decided that if the God of Abraham was true then I would try and live like the self proclaimed Messiah and see what happens. 

I figured that if I was going to do this, I was going to go for the area of my life that I would rather have avoided too see if this God was real.  It was tough dude.  I stopped sleeping with chicks.  I stopped watching pornography.  I stopped jerking off.  That sucked(s)  I love all three of those things.  I'm a dude.  I slept with girls when for fun.  When I was lonely or bored.  One of the biggest things that I've identified about myself is that I'm a lustful dude.  Girls have always seemed to like me and I've always enjoyed their company.  It was difficult to not only physically control myself on a consistent basis, but mentally it was difficult as well.  It wasn't until I was conscious of my thoughts that I realized how sinful I was.  It wasn't just my speech or actions.  Not so much how the 'world' perceived me, but how I was in my core.  I was a sinner.  As good and nice as I was to those in my life.  As much as I loved them.  It doesn't change the fact that at our core, as humans, we're sinners.  We are not perfect.   And that's ok.  God knows that.  He's provided a way.

God is perfect.  He wants relationship with us but because of the presence of sin in our lives that full relationship cannot be fulfilled.  That is the reason for the life of Jesus.  He came to teach us how to live in the manner that pleases the Creator of the universe.  He died so that the sin in our lives can no longer prevent us from being in relationship with the goodness that is God.  The more I attempted to live my life in the manner of Jesus the more I felt my heart literally change.  I felt a strength and assurance in the truth that I had never had before.  The more I lived in a manner that pleased God, my intellectual desire to understand him subsided.  It was replaced with a God given confidence in the truth of the universe.  What I can see and understand is no longer the barometer which determines what is and isn't real.  I still love science.  But I fully believe that it will only show us how complex and unbelievable this creation is.  The further science takes us the more I'm in awe of him.

Salvation through Jesus Christ became real.  My heart, over time, was convicted and convinced of the truth in his message.  He was a modest and humble teacher and through his perfect life and murder comes the salvation for all of creation.  God wants us to recognize this simple truth and accept it. 

When that happens your world view changes.  Your perspective on life and what it means to be a human being on this planet, changes.  You realize that your life isn't about you.  it's not about what we want.  If we are the creation and the Creator wants relationship with us and has a perfect, divine plan for us, for eternity,  why wouldn't we want to go along with Him?

So.  That's my take on your Jesus/New Testament why question.

Like I said, I'm not interesting it just having to respond to a long list of single passages.  But I'd be happy to talk about any of them.

Let me know what you'd like to discuss next..

Best dude,

Round 8

Q:
       ‪Genesis 1‬

‪The fact that the Bible was written by multiple authors, shows more of it's flaws. The authors are bound to have different stories, the stories that they made up, not very truthful.‬

‪It's more evidence that the Bible is nothing more than a book of man, no God. What they wrote is definitely what a man of 2,000 years ago would think. It's clear that they do NOT know light came from the sun, or that plants need light for photosynthesis. They do not know about the earlier creatures that went extinct, of course. No mention of dinosaurs or cavemen.‬

‪It's CLEAR the authors did NOT know about those things. It's not because they say it in a way for the men of the time to understand, they really DON'T know. When they said the earth is just 6,000 years old, they really made it up. It's no allegory.‬

‪If we were men of 2,000 years ago, we would never have thought about dinosaurs or planets or any of that. The fact that they never mentioned those things, prove they do not know it.‬

‪On to your interpretations:‬

‪Day 1. It clearly was talking about Day and Night. One thing they didn't know is what was causing it, so they say God is doing it (separating light and darkness). But we do know it's from Earth's rotation.‬

‪Day 2. It was talking about separating waters. Nothing about planets forming.‬

‪Day 3. Clearly talks about the earth being nothing but water, then land appearing in it, and we know that's just another made-up story of the authors.‬

‪Day 4. It clear the sun was created AFTER light was appeared. It is known that before Day 4, there is no sun, clearly. Day 4 implies that the sun doesn't emit light, which we know is false. Your part about it not being visible, is wrong. It's not about being able to see it, it's about knowing it exists. Day 4 only proves that it's the day the sun, moon, stars were created, not when it's finally visible.‬

‪Day 5. It's clear that it talks about MODERN fishes and birds appearing. They clearly do NOT know about the earlier extinct species of earth. It's also clear there is NO mention of dinosaurs.‬

‪The authors CLEARLY have no knowledge of these things. Proves it's just a made up creation story by early ignorant men who knew nothing of science.‬

‪Day 6. Again, shows no proper knowledge. And as for prehistoric men, even you should be smart enough to admit that THEY are our ancestors. They are prehistoric HUMANS after all. But the Bible doesn't know that and doesn't mention cavemen. Again, limited by the authors' knowledge.‬

‪And about God creating men in his own image, has big flaws. God's image is a human, right? He has a face, hands, feet, etc. But why? In the very beginning, there was nothing but God. But why would he have eyes, when he can see nothing? Hands, when he can't touch anything? Ears, when there's no sound? Feet? Tongue? Why does God have all these features that are adapted for living on Earth in the very beginning?‬

‪Here's the more reasonable answer. MAN created God in his own image, not the other way around.‬

‪Anything else that you add with interpretation, there is no real evidence to prove it. But what I wrote up there, has logic and reasoning applied, and makes sense.‬

‪To Genesis 2.‬
‪"But if one reads The Bible properly then those contradictions disappear."‬
‪What do you mean by read properly? How?‬

‪You mean just read and blindly believe whatever it says no matter what?‬

‪When you see information that has so many contradictions and false ideas, it's common sense that it is FALSE. That is the Bible.‬

‪Contradiction indicates falseness.‬

‪Example I made up: 9 P.M. two friends murdered and raped a girl in a dark alley and threw the body somewhere. Witnesses saw the car of those two was near that alley. A camera saw those two were talking angrily with the girl at a shopping mall.‬

‪Police interviewed them separately: Where were you two at 9 P.M. that night?‬

‪Joe: We were at the movies.‬
‪Bob: I was watching T.V. in my house alone then went to bed.‬

‪Before police could arrest them for more investigation, Bob's mom said:‬

‪-Hold on don't take their stories literally. Just have faith in them. Here's my interpretation. About what Joe meant, I think Bob was watching a movie on T.V. alone, and Joe was in another room, also watching a movie. So their story matches, right?‬
‪-That's obviously wrong. And where you there, ma'am?‬
‪-No, but‬
‪-Well then we're taking them.‬
‪-Wait! Just have faith in them, they're good boys.‬
‪-Faith doesn't prove anything. We have witnesses and video evidence.‬
‪Nuff' said.‬

‪So yeah, when you see contradictions, don't just believe things right away.‬
‪Contradictions lead to falseness, and interpretation doesn't really stop that.‬


A:
        Ok,

Gen 1.

Man. The fact that have different stories is one of the amazing aspects of it all! They're different human beings, with their own life experiences and perspectives on events. That doesn't negate their validity at all. The fact that all these different men wrote all these letters, over all those years, and out of it came the most cohesive and simple path to God, the most pure and perfect message of Truth.

You cannot fault a people for speaking in the language/world knowledge of their time period. It would be ridiculous for the authors of The Bible to speak in modern day scientific terms or even layman's terms of concepts thousands of years away from discovery. Is God unaware of those concepts? Of course not. He created them. But the people of the time were far, far different than us, dude. There understanding of the world, their life perspectives were far different than ours. You can't fault them for speaking and writing in their language. God worked through them. The Bible was written by people, for people. They're stories and letters and gospels. The Bible is simply a collection of them arranged to tell the story of God.

Of course they knew light came from the sun. The didn't know what a photon was or what the definition of photosynthesis is. But they knew the sun admitted light, and the plants needed that light to live. And, you're right, The Bible doesn't specifically say the word dinosaur. Does it have to?

You're right. The author's didn't know about a lot of things. You're ridiculing them for being men in the middle east, thousands of years ago and not having the same perspective as your western mind.

The Bible doesn't say that the earth is 6000 years old. Man did, after interpreting the creation week as 7 literal 24hr days. They didn't make up the number. They did the math. I don't believe it, but they do. And really, it doesn't matter.

Again, you're ridiculing them for not being aware of concepts thousands of years away from discovery. Them not knowing things that science has taught us about our universe is not a negative. It's not the point. You're right, if we were men of that time we wouldn't understand the the complexity of our solar system let alone galaxy/universe. Would we need to?

OK, your points.

1. I'm not sure what you mean here. I believe you're reading the passage wrong. While it does identify and define light/dark, night/day. And even while it ends in 'the first day' you can't jump to the conclusion that it was one 24hr Earth day. God is the subject. He's creating. He is infinite. What is a day to God? Especially since our sun and stars had yet to be created (day 4) in the poem, so the systems to define an Earth day weren't even in place.

2. What do you think happens when balls of cosmic gas and elements cool and form under the pressure of gravity? It solidifies. Over time our atmosphere was established and the waters below were separated from the waters above.

3. You can't use your opinion as a means of ascertaining validity of The Bible. That's ridiculous.

4. You're making huge leaps here. You're aware that our sun is not the source of all the light in the universe right? That our sun is just a star, and fairly small one at that. Yes, the sun was created after the initial appearance and definition of light. You're correct. What's your point? I'm not a literal 7 day creationist. This process took years(to put it lightly). And it's condensed into 7 days, for the sake of effectively telling the story of the creation of all things.

5. Again, I don't know how you can fault the for not mentioning specific animal species that happened to be extinct by the time of writing? It's not a encyclopedia of all creation. The people of the time classified things in a far different manner than we do now. Are they wrong for doing so?

Again, you're ridiculing them for being a people in a time and place where science wasn't a part of their culture like it is ours.

6. What do you mean 'shows no proper knowledge'? Of what exactly? I believe that human beings are unique. That we are a specific Creation of God. I use to believe that we evolved from australopithecines but the more I dove into micro/macro-evolution and the intricacies and wonder that is DNA and the lack of any evidence in the fossil record of human beings in the middle of macro-evolutionary changes the more I became certain that we are distinguished in the universe.

I know that God is like nothing we can even imagine. His full Glory is so sick. Far beyond anything we can we comprehend with our human senses. He's the creator of the universe! He's not someone/something we can intellectually understand his/it's entirety.(It took me a long time to get to this fact). He can only be experienced. It's a heart thing not a head thing.

While your question is a legitimate one (eyes/hands/feet) it's reductionist in it's essence. You expect that you can understand what it means to be created in his image. Why doesn't God have these features? Because he doesn't need them. Why do you need ears to hear sounds when you're the creator of sound in the first place? Why do you need physical eyes when you're the source of all light in the universe?

You said that what you wrote has logic and reasoning to it. It absolutely does. But that logic and reasoning is built on the wrong foundation. Your logic is built on a misreading/misunderstanding of the creation poem.

Genesis 2

I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't actually read what I write. Or at least, fail to retain it. For one to properly read The Bible one needs to make sure they're aware of who the author is, who the receiver of the writing is, and when it was written. It's also a good idea to have a basic understanding of the cultures and customs of the time period. Remember, it was written at a specific point in human history, it's not a general book to the world. By people, for people. And God was actively involved in it's compilation. Taking those things into perspective you can put those contradictions to rest.

I don't blindly believe, I question everything. I hope you would know that about me by now.

Please point out some contradictions, I'd love to talk about them specifically. Let's avoid generalizations.

Your example is disturbing. Murder and rape? I think a less violent and more eloquent scenario could have be thought of. Again, you're coming up with some fictional scenario to try and disprove what I hold to be true. It's not very effective. Plus, it really just doesn't make much sense. I've read it a few times and still don't know what point you're trying to make about your believed falseness of God.

I think that about covers that. Let me know your thoughts.
What next?

Take care dude,

Round 7

Q:
Well we were talking about faith stuff, can't be tested. Well now is my real stuff that logic can test.

Genesis 1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Day 1- Heavens and earth are created. "Let there be light." Day and Night.
* Day 2 - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
* Day 3 - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is made.
* Day 4 - Sun, moon, stars are made.
* Day 5 - Sea life and birds are made.
* Day 6 - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and female) are made.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Light was created. And then the sun and stars are made AFTER light was created.

This proves the Bible didn't know that light came from the sun, a star. Proves God, the all-knowing, didn't know that.

2. Vegetation was made before the sun appeared.

This proves the Bible doesn't know anything about photosynthesis, which is a fact.

3. Waters appeared first, and then land appeared.

This means the Earth started as a big ball of water floating in space, then land appeared from the inside, which doesn't make much sense.

4. It talks as if the Earth was the only thing around, as if there is no outer space, as if the Earth was the center of the universe. Those are in fact, wrong.

5. It never mentions the planets, obviously because the Bible authors didn't know planets exist, from their low technology at the time.

Dinosaurs were also never mentioned to be created, that they don't exist, which is in fact wrong, proven by the fossils. The authors, again, didn't know, therefore couldn't make up in their "story."

Genesis 2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heaven and earth were created. There was no plant yet on earth, no rain yet, and no man. But, a mist rose watering the surface of the ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Finally, God made Eve.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. (I copied this off some comment I saw) why would God make man out of some kind of amazing magic clay when he could've just created him instantly from nothing, if he'd wanted to? seems like an obvious creation myth to me. the kind of thing an uneducated sheep-herder might come up with.

2. It says there was no plant yet, then God created man? Didn't Genesis 1 say on day 3 vegetation is made, then on day 6 he created man? There, you see the contradiction.

What a mistake. The stories of Genesis 1 and 2 don't go together. This proves that at least one of them is wrong. The word of God is WRONG.

Ok that's enough Bible flaw for today. I look forward to your reply.


A:
HeyHey,

Ok! The Bible. Here we go.

First, before we tackle you statements regarding the creation poem in Genesis, and try to apply human logic and reasoning to it, we should understand exactly what the Bible is, and how to look at it.

The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, over approximately 1600 years. (i'll say this, given those facts, it's a miracle that The Bible even exists, let alone available to all. Please look into the history of the book.)

When reading The Bible it's absolutely necessary to put into context the author, the culture of people the books were being written to, and the socio-politial-religious climate that they were written in to. Does that make sense to you? If we don't know those factors, then we're taking it out of context and will be missing out on the core truth that The Bible delivers. Do I believe that The Bible is the word and truth of God? Yes. Do I read it word for word and interpret it's meaning literally within this period in time (2010) on this planet? No. The Bible is both literal and allegorical at the same time.

Now the creation poem. This is my interpretation of the first chapter in the book of Genesis. It's an account of the creation of all things, written to and for a people that hadn't a home and had been nomadic in nature. The were a basic people and technologically devoid. There concept of what is and isn't possible is vastly different than ours. This poem was written in a basic language which conveys God's truth about him being the source point for creation. If we look at it literally and read it word for word as simple words on a page and expect them to make sense out of the gate, then we're reading with a reductionist viewpoint and don't allow the Truth to come from the pages. Now for the creation poem itself.

Day 1.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:1-5

- Before the big bang creation event, nothing of our universe existed, not even time or space. It truly was in the beginning that God existed and caused the universe to explode out of nothing. One of the laws of physics is the law of causality which, when paraphrased, says an effect can not be part of it's cause. Translation - nothing cannot produce something anyway you look at it unless acted upon by an outside force - in this case God. Space, time, matter, and energy spread out like a curtain at God's command. Why didn't the universe collapse immediately back upon itself due to the immense affects of gravity as physics tells us it could have? Obviously there was enough force to overcome gravity, but this would just as likely have resulted in no matter heavier than hydrogen ever forming in the universe. Something out of nothing? Not possible, outside of God. Genesis 1:2 tells us it is because the Spirit of God was hovering over creation and He chose to overcome the laws of physics which He set in motion by perfectly balancing the big bang event. Again, he is woven into the fabric of this universe. In the big bang model of creation it is expected that photons would have been the first recognizable particles of matter to form. A photon is a particle of light. Imagine that! Many billions of years pass with stars forming and collecting into swirling galaxies. The newly forming sun condenses until the nuclear furnace ignites, light fills the solar system. He separated light from dark. Day one.- +15 billion to 5 billion years ago. I'll also add that separating light from dark, I believe, also speaks to the fact that no darkness is in God. He is light, He is good, He is love. He separated the light from the dark, therefore separating good and evil. Also in the poem it refrains, 'evening and morning' not morning then evening. I believe that this also speaks to man coming out of the 'darkness' that is sin, and into the 'light'. The goodness and acceptance of God.

Day 2
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:6-8

- God molded the planets of our solar system out of the elements of the cosmos - the leftovers of the gas cloud that formed our sun. This swirling cloud clumped and condensed into the individual planets. Day 2 expresses the work of God in forming and shaping one of these. The core of the gaseous ball that was to become the earth begins to cool until it solidifies. This distinctly separates the waters of the atmosphere from the waters of the earth - 5 billion to 4 billion years ago.

Day 3
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. Gen 1:9-13

- The earth continues to cool. steam begins to rise up out of the volcanic rock and forms a shallow sea(s) over the earth. The dry ground is raised up out of the ocean, due to plate movement and volcanic activity. A heavy cloud cover envelops the earth. Life appears in the fossil records of the very earliest rocks that formed. Primitive fauna can be found.- 4 billion to 1.5 billion years ago.

Day 4
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Gen 1:14-19

- A casual reading of Genesis suggests that the Sun, Moon and stars were made on day four. Taking all of scripture into account we see that these existed long before. What we can see is that scripture records creation from the perspective of an earth bound observer. This observer would see the earth was enveloped in a heavy cloud of volcanic ash, steam and carbon dioxide. The light of the sun was visible but not the sun until this time as the cloud cover begins to clear. As the volcanic ash settles the single celled life forms in the ocean, including blue-green algae are at work cleansing the atmosphere until it is rich in oxygen, making air-breathing life possible. So yes, it was day 4 that the sun/moon/stars were a visible part of of life on this planet. - 1.5 billion to 700 million years ago.

Day 5

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:20-23

- During day five we see the filling of the seas and the skies. About 570 million years ago the single biggest period of creation takes place. Today we know this as the Cambrian explosion. Creatures with hard-shelled bodies like trilobites and shellfish were created, creatures with skeletons such as fish spread throughout the ocean depths. Soon after, the Earth sees the first creatures appearing on land, apparently brought forth by the sea: amphibians, reptiles, and insects. Another great explosion of life begins 225 million years ago as dinosaurs appear and they dominate for 160 million years. Note that the KJV translates the Hebrew 'tanniyn' as whale . The translation used in the NIV is 'creature' but it also means a marine or land monster i.e. a sea serpent or dragon . The NASB translates it sea monster as does the RSV and Darby versions. Young's Literal translation translates it simply as monster . Bet they never told you that in Sunday School or science class.

NOTE: The KJV uses dragon many times in the Old Testament. The dragons are not dinosaurs, as they were extinct millions of years before man was created. The dragons are probably crocodiles with an occasional hippopotamus, but they are not dinosaurs. The same Hebrew word is translated dragon and whale but Genesis 1:21 calls dinosaurs 'gadowl tanniyn' or great monster. The only other place in scripture where this word combination is used is in Ezekiel 29:3, where in Ezekiel's prophesy great monster refers to Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Late in this day birds begin to fill the skies above the heads of the dinosaurs. - 700 million to 65 million years ago.

Day 6

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:24-31

- Day six begins as the dinosaurs become extinct. 65 million years ago mammals begin to rule the earth with the appearance of the grazing animals and wild beasts. True Man appears last with the creation of Adam and Eve. - 65 million to about 10,000 years ago.

What about prehistoric man? I believe they are included with the beasts of the earth just as monkeys and apes are beasts. No matter how intelligent they may or may not have been, there is no evidence that they were created in the image of God. There is no evidence that they had a spirit. The spirit is that part of man that acknowledges the Creator and longs for communion with Him. The Spirit can be suppressed but the result is restlessness and a lack of fulfillment.

Day 7

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3

- We are now in day seven - the day of rest. Nothing new has been created since man appeared (More on this later).

The young-earth creationists say the 7 days are literal 24-hour days. The facts of the universe say they have interpreted scripture incorrectly. By realizing the days are long periods of time and establishing an earth bound point of view you can see that science and the Bible tell the same story in complete agreement.

This is my interpretation and understanding of the first chapter(s) of Genesis. People looking for literal and exact truth in The Bible will find themselves frustrated. They won't find a explanation laid out for them in a manner that our human brains can understand. The creation of this universe is way too complicated to be detailed in a single chapter of a book in The Bible. Especially to near-eastern Jews 3000 years ago. God spoke through Moses using allegory and plain words to explain a concept that was far beyond them to understand. You see, man has been asking the same questions since our creation. The same questions your asking. They don't have the benefit/detriment to have been born into a western culture where science/technology make things 'seem' much more confusing.

Does one's viewpoint on the creation poem have any effect on the God message of The Bible? No. We can debate all day on the how's of creation. 6 days compared to the billions of years science tells us this rock has been around. I'm in the science camp, but that doesn't change the core message of the first chapter of Genesis. God created.

On to Genesis 2

1. Again, you're reading the chapter literally. Please take into account the people that that this was written. I believe the process by which God created us was far more complex and intricate than just piling dust together and breathing into it. I believe that is written to give the reader a statement of faith, 'we are created in his own image' in basic and straight forward language. Would it be prudent for God to inform them about the complexities of DNA and cellular mitosis as it relates to the inner workings of human form? It might satisfy modern day man on an intellectual level, but this book was written thousands of years ago, and if God revealed the 'how' of creation the concept would be lost. Do you understand what I mean by this?

2. The plant/man debate. If reading Genesis literally, then yes, there is a contradiction. But the question also stems from the wrong assumption that the second chapter of Genesis is just a different account of creation to that in chapter 1. It should be evident that chapter 2 is not just 'another' account of creation because chapter 2 says nothing about the creation of the heavens and the earth, the atmosphere, the seas, the land, the sun, the stars, the moon, the sea creatures, etc. Chapter 2 mentions only things directly relevant to the creation of Adam and Eve and their life in the garden God prepared specially for them. Chapter 1 may be understood as creation from God's perspective; it is 'the big picture', an overview of the whole. Chapter 2 views the more important aspects from man's perspective. Of course chapter 1 and 2 don't go together. They're different accounts. The first, the story of initial creation, while the second is specific to the creation of man.

If I wanted to get specific though I can say that Genesis 2:4-5 is merely a statement. That before man, God created the heavens and the earth. It does not state that man was made before the plants and animals. It does not contradict the creation poem. It does not go on to state that after man, God continued on to create flora/fauna. We were the final creation. Based on the nature of your question I can see that you're making the assumption that it's saying man was made into a world devoid of life. That's not the case.

I'm sorry, but the 'mistake' you're pointing out isn't that in the least bit. It's not a second account. It's a more in depth account of the actual creation of man. Two different things.

I admit that if one pulls single verses out of The Bible and compares them against each other, outside of historical and social context, then contradictions will arise. That is not a flaw of The Bible but one of the reader. But if one reads The Bible properly then those contradictions disappear.

That's my take brother. Again, we can't approach God and expect to understand him in his entirety using human logic and reasoning alone. The heart/faith is integral to having a full and real relationship with the Lord. I have a rock solid faith in the existence of God from first hand experiences I've had in my own life. That faith leads to truth. Truth to knowledge. Knowledge to wisdom. God wants us to have his wisdom. He wants us to know and affirm his truth. And his truth is in those pages. He's our father and wants us to know it.

Take care dude...
Talk later.

Round 6

Q:
I'm not an amputee, I was just using the question I found from other videos. But just as you say, if God was to regenerate an amputee's limb, it will be a "proof I'm here" and that will take out the reason for faith.

Well then what is faith? It's the belief in God and that he exists. Since God demands faith so much and wants to be worshiped so much, you have to admit he is. An. Egomaniac.

Basically God demands people to have faith and worship him, and then they will go to heaven. But if not, they will go to hell. Isn't that what a tyrant would do?

Let's say if a real non-tyrant great person was God, he wouldn't need to show around his religion. If he did, that would interfere.

If he shows people to have faith, then the not-really-good-guys would try to pretend to be good, so that they would go to heaven.

Basically when Christians do good, it's not always because of pure good heart.
But when Atheists do good, they're doing it for good, not expecting reward from God.

God doesn't interfere and allows bad things to happen. Rape, murder, disease, natural disasters. But when wanting people to have faith he exists, he'd interfere, just so they could worship him? Really? You would go to the trouble of interfering the earth to make em worship you, but when horrible things happen, you don't bother saving people? All for the sake of testing them if they really believe in you? All about you?

So you see, he's much of an egomaniac.

And you said he doesn't heal amputees to let faith on, then how come he "shows himself to people's lives" and does the "miracle of the healed brain tumor/cancer patient?" Doesn't that takes away the faith thing too? So yeah, what you said was flawed, I believe.

Anyways, how he wants so much faith, is enough to show his ego. Why can't he just fix the world, instead of "testing" people's faith by not doing anything?

Faith just shows the level of believing strongly in something that doesn't have proof. Having faith doesn't show the level of how nice/evil a person is, so why is faith part of what decides if you go to heaven or hell?

Looking forward for your reply on the above.

Oh I almost forgot, answer this too:

The Bible is the word of God, and that means you believe 100% in the Bible, right?


A:
Yo,

Ok good. I was hoping you had all your limbs. :) Yeah, as awesome as it would be to see a hand regenerate before your eyes, I just don't think that's God's style.

I can see what you're trying to say. And if you believe that God is the authoritarian, apathetic God, who just demands our faith, you'd be right. But that's common misunderstanding of Him that people who don't have a real relationship with him have. God isn't an authoritarian, although he has all authority. He isn't apathetic. If one reads the Bible bible properly. Putting it into the context of the time period in which it was written, and to whom it was written, if you read it through, you see an entirely different God. He's an active and loving God. He quite literally is our father. He is the source point from which we came. We were created in HIS image. I don't have kids. I hope to some day, I think that'd be awesome. But I can imagine, that when I'm a dad, I'd want my kids to love me. I'd want them to know that I'm there Pop, and I love the shit out of them. The Jesus message, the story of God, is exactly that. God wants us to love him. He wants us to know that he's our Father. That he really does have our best interests in mind. That's the core of it. The only thing 'religion' has done is change that message for the sake of peace, power, or money. Does God want our faith? Absolutely. He loves us, he wants us to love him. Do you think that makes him an egomaniac?

It seems like you're going back to the 'why does bad stuff happen in the world' question, and trying to use it as proof to how God is an ego-maniac. I believe I've gone over the presence of sin in this world.

"In the Bible it talks about our physical earth being handed over to evil. Evil resides here, it has it's way here. Genocide, holocausts, murder, rape. All horrible in the eyes of God yet part of our everyday existence here. I believe that God mourns for the loss of human beings at the hands of those who create these atrocities."

Let me make this clear. Sin/evil is very real, as real as God is, it's in this world and it's in us. It was we, the creation, that turned from God, it was never him abandoning us. I'll also make this clear. God is good. Pure love. No evil comes from Him. Horrible things happen. Atrocities happen, people die. It's the sin in this world and those are the physical manifestations of that sin. Remember, he's our Father. He wants us recognize our status as his children and just love him. Live for him. He knows better, anyways. I don't think him an egomaniac at all. No more than I do my own Dad for wanting to have a relationship with me.

As far as what I said being flawed, I respectfully disagree. The healing of sickness and disease is very different from the re materialization of a physical limb. Internal medicine leaves much room for debate and conjecture within the medical community while having a limb reappear is right there, out in the open. Can you see the difference? While both require either the disappearance or reappearance of physical matter and are absolute miracles they are very different. But we can agree to disagree.

Again, he is without ego. He is the truth. He desires our faith because he wants us to know the truth. To hear the 'good news' and realize that we actually are a creation and not just a physical being that's born/lives/dies.
He can fix the world. He will fix the world. And the reason that he has yet to is because he wants as many of his kids realize His truth and come along for ride. Then he'll make it all new. If we're talking about the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham. Then that's what we're talking about.

You see, you're looking at the faith/heaven/hell thing through human eyes.
And you're basically asking a simple question that I've already covered.
The word faith can be very vague. We're not talking about 'believing strongly in something.' I have faith the brakes on my car will stop my car. This topic is talking about a core faith in the Creator of the universe. Totally different! And the awesome thing about God, when it comes time for all to be judged, is that he knows your heart. All of it. Faith is a heart thing, it's not something that can be 100% understood rationally nor is it only something that someone says out of their mouth. I tell you the truth, if one has truly surrendered their heart to God and want only to live the life that He wants, only good will come from him. Doing good alone carries no weight in heaven. The intent behind those deeds is what matters.

The Bible. Yes I believe that it's the inspired Word of God. Written by men. I believe that If one reads the Bible properly, by taking into account: author, when it was written, where it was written, to whom it was written, then the truth of God is glaring. I think far too many people read the Bible far too literally. Word for word, not understanding the context into which those words were written. I believe that fact that the Bible even exists is a miracle.
I believe 100% in the Truth that emanates from the Bible.

Take care dude....talk to you soon

Round 5

Q:
Scientists doesn't need to have faith that gravity is real. They know it's real.
Knowing and having faith is different. Faith=having hope in something. When people see things as is, they don't hope that's what they see. They know that's what they see. Bottom line:
Christianity - pure faith
Science - logic/seeing as is

Many people believing in God doesn't prove he exist. The reason why many believe, is because of the Bible or they've been told. Why many kids believe in Santa, is because of TV or they've been told he exists. God = Santa for grown-ups.

Now I think (not hope) that most people in Youtube or at least half, might not believe in God. 99% of the time, atheist videos have higher ratings than Christian videos. Atheist comments usually have more thumbs up than Christians.

An atheist pretending to be Christian (don't watch it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8DyEtu5CTg&

But a comment that says "God doesnt exist" is a highest rated with 8 thumbs up. Of course Christians thumb it down, but there are more atheists.

4. But why won't God heal amputees?

"Well sure, everybody else can be healed by God and everything. If someone doesn't die and survives the disease, people would go ahead and say it's because of God. But when someone is amputated, they say oh God won't heal that, well because... um... he just won't heal that. Though if someone else gets healed, it was the doing of God."

Yeah right.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
-Epicurus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmN3ELvsdjs&

The video has good ratings, watch it to the end. I assure you it's not about nonsense.

The video proves the below.
God doesn't punish sinners or reward people for good deeds, because God doesn't exist. Things happen at random, it's not God's doing.



A:
HeyHey,

You're correct. You don't have to have faith to believe in gravity. It's a scientific fact. I'm NOT arguing against science. I love science. I think it's one of the greatest developments of our species. I'm not disagreeing with nor condemning science. I'm a proponent of it. But science has never proven, nor dis proven God. I believe it never will. So we all have faith, Snake, it just depends on which we choose. Atheism is the believe in the physical world and all that is proven by science. Atheist have faith that science (man's rational intellect/ego) can explain and comprehend the magnitude of this universe.

You are also correct. The number of actual people that believe in God, as overwhelming as it is, does not prove that God exists. But the volumes of people baring witness to God working in there lives is staggering. You said it yourself, 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles today. That's a staggering number. I've seen God work in my life. In way's I never even saw coming. Are these people delusional? Lying? What about the 75% of doctors? Are they lying? Crazy? What about me? Am I nuts? While I concede that in all of that, there is no 'physical proof'. Nothing that can be worked in a lab or theorized over and replicated. Nothing that the scientific method (we'll get to Epicurus) can be applied to. But this is eye witness testimony to something outside of themselves working in the world and in their lives. In my life. Our God is not a science experiment or something that can be boiled down to a theorem. He's much bigger.

A woman at my mothers church was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. If i recall properly it consumed over half of the left hemisphere of her brain. After multiple doctors visits and test she was to have advanced treatments(i don't know if it was advanced radiation or actual surgery). Before that happened her doctor told her that it had vanished. The tumor, all of it. It was gone. There in the day before. Then gone. The doctor had no clue as to what happened. Science can't explain it. She had malignant brain cancer one day. Absolutely cancer free the next. Unbelievable. Crazy. But true. Why her, why her cancer and not someone else? I don't know. But my not knowing doesn't change the fact that it happened.

So it really comes down to that which you choose to have faith in. Man's intellect/science or God. Like I said before. We can't prove anything about this universe and why we're here. Either way. For or against God. So you have to have faith in something. I've chosen God.

As far as your You Tube point. I don't understand how the number of atheistic videos/comments/thumbs up can be entered in as evidence against God. Please let me know how I'm suppose to understand your meaning. Are you making up those percentages? Or is that a statistic you can back up? Please provide more information. Frankly, I don't think a whole lot of believers spend their time recording web cam videos and uploading them to You Tube. On the other hand You Tube is rich with videos made up mostly by people who seem to have fairly fuzzy logic and a loose grasp on both science and theology. I've watched most of them and they're all pretty much the same. Using the same source points as their ammunition against a Creator. It's amazing what a Richard Dawkins book and an afternoon with Google can do to an average man's ego.

Again? With the amputees? Do you happen to be an amputee of some sort? I apologize if I'm stretching or If I'm out of line in some way, but I felt inclined to ask. The short answer, I don't know. And not knowing something doesn't disprove anything. If I had to postulate, I'd say that physically manifesting an new limb would break the natural laws of known physics and blow the minds of human beings thus asserting God physically into this world.(God could, of course, do it in a heartbeat) You see faith is what God seeks. Faith requires belief in something outside of yourself without physical proof that it exists. A physical re-manifestation of a limb would be God saying 'I'm here, this is proof'. It would remove the need for faith. God wants us to choose him. To see that he is the one true God. With physical proof we would become slaves. We'd either fall in line or choose to revolt, because there would be no denying that there is a God. He doesn't want that. He wants willful relationship.

Ah yes Epicurus. Quite the dude. Thought a lot of himself. Good brain on him though, albeit misdirected. He felt, as to many modern day humans, especially North Americans, that the human intellect is the highest form of evolution within the Universe. That his logic and reason can make sense of the world around him. We can thank him for the scientific method, as well as for holding it up as the barometer to establish all that is 'real' and 'knowable'. He was also an ego maniac and held feasts in his own name. Just because it's old and Greek, doesn't mean it carries any weight. Whether ancient Greece or a lab at MIT, it's still man assuming he can make sense of all of this. He's quote is nice. It's clever. But it's totally misguided, I'm afraid. He's not taking into account the presence of sin in this world. His foundational knowledge of God is off. All style, no substance. Basically all this man is saying is that because I don't understand, It's not real. That's all.

Yes, I've seen that video, I've seen all of his videos. He's one of those who think they're smarter then they actually are. He seems like a lonely guy with too much time on his hands. He makes so many generalizations that it makes it very hard to watch. His basic misunderstanding of good and evil is obvious. He boiled it down to two God views? A malevolent or apathetic God? Ha. I'm glad he's speaking to the mind of a 'religious' person. :)

Also his last question is off the mark. He asks 'if you were to believe in a god what sort of role would you want him to play?' This question is ridiculous. It's not a matter of us choosing which role we want God to play. The question should be if there's a God, who created all things, what role should I play. We are the creation. God wants us to be in relationship with him. Live for him. That's the role he plays, regardless of what humans want. That's a scary thought until you understand that nothing but good comes from him. In him there is no evil or sin.

The video proved nothing except The Amazing Atheist's simple lack of understanding of the simple concepts behind who and what God is. He only proved how un-amazing he truly is.

Take care dude.
Talk soon,

Round 4

Q:
Let me make this clear. Atheism isn't faith at all. Atheism, compared to Christianity (which is based completely on faith only) is about seeing the world as is. You can't blame atheism for anything bad at all. Some could dislike SOME atheists for being jerks and bashing people's beliefs, but not atheism. Atheism is like science, it's about reasoning.

If I were to say I have an invisible pet dinosaur in my house, that can't be touched or felt or detected whatsoever by science, that wears pajamas and has a face like Michael Jackson, do you think scientists/atheists will believe me?

Well they can't really disprove me DIRECTLY. But they can disprove it indirectly, with reasoning.

Reason:
1. It's common sense. You lie.
2. When we look at the dinosaur, we see nothing, we might as well know that nothing's there.
3. Even our most advanced science stuff can't see it, and you claim you can see it with your eyes? And only you can see it?
4. Dinosaur with MJ's face is ridiculous enough, but it's also freaking undetectable? Even ghosts are detectable...
5. You're obviously crazy.

Well the reasons to disprove it... are reasonable. We can know it's not real, just by using reason.

So you can't blame atheist for not believing in your God, after all they only used reason. Not seeing is not believing.

If someone told you you won a billion dollars, you wouldn't believe it right away and you would check to make sure it's true. Maybe you wouldn't even check because you know that's impossible. You just did what an atheist would do.

Reason. Not just blind faith believing right away.

My questions will get tougher each time. But first, here's one from someone else's:


According to a poll, 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now.

Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, reversing the effects of poisons, and so on...

4. But why won't God heal amputees?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&



A:
Hey,

Ok. I'll take one more shot at the atheism thing. It absolutely is a system of faith. Atheism, as you say, is about seeing the world as it is. Correct? You have to have faith that we, as human beings, are capable of seeing all there is. I don't believe we can. Atheists believe that this physical world should be able to have the scientific method applied to it to produce predictable and repeatable results. Hence, science. Hence, atheism. God, no God? Put it to the test. Faith in science. Faith in mankind to be all knowing. Faith that we can logically and systematically explain all that there is, through our own efforts. You see, it is a system of faith.

Don't get me wrong, I love and am a proponent of science. I believe it strikes to the core of our species. To question and explore and make sense of the world around us. Science is the means that helps us understand this complex creation.

I can discuss the negative effects atheistic principals have had on our society if you'd like? Yes, quite a number of atheists that I've come across happen to be jerks. Most are arrogant, but that's to be expect. But Christianity has it's fair share of them too. You're right though. In comparison to religion as a whole, atheism hasn't been the source for as much human suffering as the God debate has. But I've come to realize that if so many people care about a central topic so deeply that they're driven to give or take a life, it just might be true. Which is a perfect segue into our next bit. Your example

First off, it's awesome. I want a pajama'd MJ dino. Unfortunately you're a bit off base with this. See, your deity would be just that. Yours. You'd just be a dude who's a bit wacked talking of a god dino in your closet. That's very different from the 2 billion plus people who believe in the God of Abraham talked about in the Christian Bible. Your correct. Simple deductive reasoning would prove that the MJ dino does not exist. That's very different from using human logic to disprove a God that so many people over the course of human history have come to believe in. Especially when so many people bare testimony to God working in their lives. They're stating that he exists. Are they lying? Am I?

90% of the worlds population believes in some for of God. Are we all wrong?

Or we can talk about dark matter. It's amazing. It's properties are immeasurable and it's presence is integral to all things in this universe. What is it? Well, we don't know. We've never seen it. Science only infers it's there because of certain effects on matter we can see. I only bring this up because it seems to be an example of science believing in something outside of itself. Having faith that something is there, regardless of the fact that they've never seen it or reproduced it and don't know what it is. It has to be there though. It's woven into the fabric of the universe. :) The science proves that.

So before I make a statement about amputees. 3 out of 4 doctors believes God is performing medical miracles on earth? Hmm. I didn't know that. That's cool. So 75% of that poll. All highly intelligent(far smarter than I), well educated individuals. Who endured 7years of institutional learning before completing multiple years of residency. 75% believe in God? Let alone the fact that he's performing medical miracles? Does that not make you stop and think? People who have devoted their lives to anatomy and physiology of the human body. We're an unbelievable creation Snake.

OK, amputees. I laughed at first. I found this to be a bit ridiculous. I admit, losing a limb would not be fun. I have an old baseball coach who lost his left arm at the elbow because of a table saw. Brutal when it happened. But, that's like asking, 'Why isn't God healing lazy eyes?'. It's singling out one single affliction and using it as evidence against God. Because THIS didn't happen, He can't exist.

Healing isn't always physical. Most times, healing is a heart issue. My coach embraced his nub. He was bitter at first but grew to accept it then it grew into a part of him. His wife loved it.

God can do anything. He doesn't do everything.

I look forward to continuing these talks brother.