Q:
Usually, Christians take whatever information, and form it in their own way to make it to their favor. In your case, your interpretation. You don't really have proof that because the people are of ancient times, it's ok for their stories to not make scientific sense. That the Bible is 100% true, even though there is a huge amounts of contradictions, and that it completely contradicts scientific reality.
You don't have proof.
Open your mind. Accept the possibility that God doesn't exist (unless you have undeniable proof that you could show me). You can't rule out the possibility that the authors are really are just ignorant men trying to rule people through their Bible.
It's definitely possible that they are just men that decided to write the Bible, making up stories about God, to control people into behaving however they want.
The evidence is in favor of that possibility. The Bible has nothing but stuff that ancient men would write. There is nothing miraculous about the writings in there. Everything there is just what the men with their limited knowledge would write.
>God needing to create the universe day by day, when he could have just done it in a split second.
>God having human features adapted for survival on Earth.
>God having to use dirt, instead of just making man magically appear if he wanted to.
>God having to flood people, instead of just making them magically disappear if he wanted to.
>God needing to test people's faith, even though he is all-knowing.
>Angels that are obviously a mix of man and bird that came from the imagination.
>Talking snakes and bushes.
These are just ungodly ways of what a God would do. He should be able to make anything happen by command. He can give Moses information by willing it, but no he has to primitively be a talking bush to talk to Moses.
You see, the evidence points to the Bible being just a book written by primitive men, talking about ungodly things.
Part 2:
The police found her body, and the DNA's on her body matched Joe and Bob's.
When shown to both of them, Bob pleads guilty and makes most of the blame on Joe, and Joe does the same. The mom still insists on faith and says they were just framed.
-Ma'am, we have video evidence of them admitting that he did it.
-What?! No way! They're good boys just have faith!
-Faith doesn't prove anything. We have REAL scientific evidence that Bob and Joe are immoral, cruel, committed rape and murder, and aren't good. They admitted it themselves, not framed. Nothing you can do.
-No I'll just ignore all the evidence and science and blindly believe.
-Believe what you want, it's common sense they're guilty, they even admitted it. Geez.
Sorry about the disturbing story, but I just made it so it can relate. The Bible has a lot of rape and murder, that's why it's in the story.
About the very ungodly things, yeah I copied a lot but here's a long list that I copied off someone (you will see just how "godly" and "merciful" God is):
Ritual Human and Animal Sacrifice
God sends himself to die for himself to allow himself to change a rule he created himself. (Jesus, New Testament)
Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God (Genesis 22:1-18)
Kill first-born humans and animals (Exodus 13:2)
More human sacrifice (Leviticus 27:28-29)
Jephthah Burns His Daughter (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)
God Commands Burning Humans (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Josiah and Human Sacrifice (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT) (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
Human Sacrifice (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Child Sacrifice (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.)
Humans are Fuel for Fire (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)
Burn Nonbelievers (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Rape
Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Slavery
Slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
How Hebrew slaves are to be treated (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
It is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
You can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slavery is still approved of in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
Beating slaves who didn't know they did any wrong (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Murder
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
More of Samson's Murders (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
A:
Yo,
That's all anybody can do with the books of The Bible. Read and interpret. The Bible might not be written in scientific terms, did you actually expect it would be? These are ancient writings. Just because they are so, doesn't make them invalid. You continually hold up The Bible against science. They're not opponents. The Bible speaks the Truth of God. Science discovers the truth within this physical world. They've been tied together from the beginning.
Again, which contradiction, specifically, would you like to talk about?
Open my mind? Let's compare minds. You believe only in the evidence that we can see/know/understand, in the here and now. You believe only in what modern day science has told us about our universe. You have no faith outside of what we 'know'. Your mind is quite narrow. I believe that science is helping us to define the how of the creation process. I believe that there is a force greater than we can imagine who was the source point for the entire universe. I believe in dimensions of reality that we cannot see nor experience during this life time. I believe we are a creation. My mind is blow wide open. I've looked at the evidence I've been searching for truth for a long time. It's not something you find within our intellectual mind alone. It's a heart thing. I've said that multiple times now. I would suggest you open your mind.
If the authors of The Bible conspired to fabricate the whole thing to control human beings then that would have taken a power that those so called unintelligent, ancient men, couldn't have possessed.
There is nothing miraculous in The Bible? Have you read it?
(I will mention that you have yet to bring any real evidence to the table regarding The Bible and it's validity. You've basically been giving me your opinion on the matter.)
Did you really expect an ancient text to go through the exact 'how' of creation. molecule by molecule? Also, if everything just appeared in a split second, it would violate the natural laws that are in the universe. Everything comes from something. I believe creation of this universe was a process. Not an instant appearance. If we saw a car in the middle of the woods, and we'd never seen a car before in our lives, we would assume that someone put it there and that it just didn't appear. It might be a foreign object to us but we would see that it has complex parts that show design and skill, and required great knowledge of math and physics to be able to have created. We would assume that it was designed and manufactured then put in place in the woods, by someone. We wouldn't assume that it just 'magically appeared'. The universe/humans are far more complex than any man made machine. The smartest scientists in the world have no clue how DNA knows how to replicate the same genetic code over and over. We have no clue how the universe is held together. These are things that cannot be understood by science yet are fundamental to making an informed decision on the existence of the universe.
Your points.
-See above
-See my previous email
-Could be literal or figurative language. Either way, we are of this earth.
and in the end one's viewpoint on this subject doesn't matter.
-Magically disappear?
-'God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.' James 1:13-14
-Angels are man birds huh?
-Why not talking snakes and bushes? Is it possible that if there was a creator of the universe, of all things, is it possible then that he could talk through a snake or a bush? If he wanted to?
What is ungodly exactly? Just because you don't understand it?
Again, what evidence are you talking about? You haven't given any.
Part 2:
Yeah, your story is falling apart. Yesterday it was suppose to convict faith, today what is it suppose to convey? That because there is violence in The Bible that it the Truth of God? There's always been violence in this world. Why would that book be different?
Lets refrain from copy and pasting a huge lists of Bible passages. If you'd like to discuss one specifically, let's go for it. But I'm not going to respond to a huge, overwhelming list all at once. I'd be happy to go through them one by one though if you'd like.
For today I'll stick to the first one. (Jesus, New testament) Then you can let me know which you'd like to tackle next.
I'll paraphrase your question: "Jesus, what's the point of it all?"
First off, I don't know what rule you're referring to.
Sin. Sin is the point. As complex as this whole topic is, it can be stripped down to it's most basic elements to find the intent of The Bible and the God message. It's good vs. evil. Light versus dark. It goes back to the very beginning. It's much bigger than you or I and to expect to intellectually understand it all in it's entirety is a lesson in futility.
This is how I relate to the Jesus message. When I finally took a step back and took a look at the world around me. The world we live in. Taking into account the immensity of our universe and the complexity of the foundations on which the our physical world is built, I came to the conclusion that there was, without a doubt, a creator. If there's a creator, so what? It makes sense to me that if there was a creator then that creator would want some form of relationship with the creation.
The Judeo-Christian God of The Bible is perfect. He is pure love. In him there is no evil, no sin. Only good comes from him. So says the scriptures. (As of this point I still only had an intellectual understanding of how things work) God created us in his image on this planet to just hang out and live in this perfect world in relationship with him. He created us in his image intellect, free will, all of it. It was that intellect and free will that introduced sin into this world. It tainted the perfect creation. Man was screwed. The ability to live in perfect harmony with God was ruined. So says the scriptures.
Fast forward through the old testament, men evolve socially and spread out. Men moves further and further away from the source point of creation(God) and more and more evil and sin is introduced into the world because of it. You see a people with a faith and hope in God, with no form of direct salvation. Their ability to be in relationship with God is dependent upon upholding the Law, to live by the commandments of God. Now this whole time there has been prophetic writings regarding a coming messiah. A king for the Jews. These divinely inspired men foretold the coming of a man that will free God's people. Establish a Kingdom. This is Judaism in a nutshell. They believe that the Messiah is yet to come. So says the scriptures.
The New Testament and the account of Jesus is a description of the life, ministry, and death of a Rabbi who claimed to be the salvation for all men, the messiah. He lectured on and demonstrated what It was to have a proper relationship with the creator as well as well as with each other. The creation. Who was this man? Was he just a teacher? Was he a prophet? Was he crazy? Man has been debating this since Jesus walked on this rock.
The way I saw it was this. The Old Testament is full of prophecies describing who the messiah will be and what he'll accomplish. It's part of the point of the collection. The number of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled during his life time(a good many he had no control over), based on a MIT study, is a mathematical improbability. He fulfilled too many for it to be a simple coincidence. Also, when you look at the life of Jesus, what do you see? A description of a man who wasn't like you and I. A man who lived a perfect life. Sinless. He lived his life in communion with God and treated others and loved others in a way only God could. His instruction on how to live in this world and treat people is, without a doubt, the ideal way of existing. Here is a guy that defied the social customs and norms of the time. It's part of what got him killed.
God is perfect and his creation was perfect. Sin entered on account of our free will actions. The story of God and Jesus is direct and complete in it's simplicity. God communicated to his creation that someone is coming who will set them free from the sin of the world. His coming was foretold. Jesus arrives fitting the description and fulfilling prophesy. His life was devoid of the sinful things that plague guys like you and I. Even the small things that only we know about. Then this sinless dude was murdered because he spoke of the good news of the Kingdom of God. He took the sin of all man on him. Your sin, my sin. Everyone's. A simple teacher, sinless, didn't put up a fight and allowed himself to be tortured and murdered because the sins of the world had to be atoned for, so God could once again have relationship with his creation. And the ability to to be in proper relationship with God required us to acknowledge that we're human and sinful in nature. We were born into it. We have to willfully acknowledge that our sins have been taken care of. Paid for. God is perfect and no sin is in him. We can't be a part of his kingdom with our present sin in tact. Jesus was perfect. Jesus was God. He took our personal sin and basically said 'I got your back'. 'I took care of it for you'.
Some see Jesus as simply a great teacher. A prophet. One who was in touch with the universe. I disagree. For me there are only three options. As C.S.Lewis put it, he's either 'a lunatic, lying, or the Lord.' Was he crazy? Well, first, he never acts as one who has lost their faculties. He performed miracles amongst the people. His peers admit this. It's corroborated in archaeological evidence. Even his detractors frustratingly admitted this. Also, the Messiah required fulfillment of Jewish prophesy. A good number of which would have been outside of human control. Those alone can disqualify his insanity. Some say he's a great prophet. Absolutely he was. Was he only a great prophet? Absolutely not. If he were strictly a great prophet, that would make him a liar. He himself claimed to be the Messiah. He claim that through him you can reach the Father. If he was only a great prophet he'd be lying and in sin and therefore not of God. He can't be a prophet and a blasphemer. That would contradict God.
When you take into account the entire life of Jesus as well as the death/ressurection you find a simple and perfect path to God. It's not hard. It's straight forward. Even a child grasps the concepts.(That's actually how God wants us to approach him) The hard part is overcoming our own ego/intellect. The hard part is being able to get out of the here/now head space and try and look at things (as best as we can) from God's perspective. God is perfect, he physically came to this planet to show us how to be, lived a perfect life, he was rejected by the establishment, he died to destroy the power of sin. It's so simple. Every other path to God relies too heavily on our own actions and intellect. I don't trust my actions and intellect. I'm soaked in sin. We all are, and all God wants is for us to get rid of it.
It leaves one option for me. He is the Messiah The Bible speaks about.
Now that's all well and good. It's a nice story, but is it real? That's a question I asked myself over and over. I understood the Jesus message intellectually, but what did that mean for me? Was it ancient near-eastern bullshit? Fairy tails of the old world attempting to explain the creation to a primitive people?
I decided to try and start living in the manner that Jesus did. I tried to apply the teaching of Jesus on a daily basis to see if there was any weight to it all. I figured, if it wasn't real and was all a bunch of crap, then there would be no discernible difference in my life. I mean, I've always been a 'good person' I'm not a felon or an asshole. I'm a fun loving dude. Lots of friends. Great family. But what if it was real? I figured if there was something to this God thing, and it was the Truth, then I would be aware of what's going on and have confirmation that this God thing is real.
I started cutting things out of my life that I enjoyed but that God taught were rooted in sin. I didn't have a come to Jesus moment. People talk being being convicted and touched by God in a moment of divine revelation. They experience God and believe, then change. That's not me. I've been searching for the truth of this universe for a long time. Most of my adult life was filled with question about God and science and the origins of man and those implication for my life. This consumed the great majority of my mental time. I wanted the same answers that men have been asking for thousands of years. I decided that if the God of Abraham was true then I would try and live like the self proclaimed Messiah and see what happens.
I figured that if I was going to do this, I was going to go for the area of my life that I would rather have avoided too see if this God was real. It was tough dude. I stopped sleeping with chicks. I stopped watching pornography. I stopped jerking off. That sucked(s) I love all three of those things. I'm a dude. I slept with girls when for fun. When I was lonely or bored. One of the biggest things that I've identified about myself is that I'm a lustful dude. Girls have always seemed to like me and I've always enjoyed their company. It was difficult to not only physically control myself on a consistent basis, but mentally it was difficult as well. It wasn't until I was conscious of my thoughts that I realized how sinful I was. It wasn't just my speech or actions. Not so much how the 'world' perceived me, but how I was in my core. I was a sinner. As good and nice as I was to those in my life. As much as I loved them. It doesn't change the fact that at our core, as humans, we're sinners. We are not perfect. And that's ok. God knows that. He's provided a way.
God is perfect. He wants relationship with us but because of the presence of sin in our lives that full relationship cannot be fulfilled. That is the reason for the life of Jesus. He came to teach us how to live in the manner that pleases the Creator of the universe. He died so that the sin in our lives can no longer prevent us from being in relationship with the goodness that is God. The more I attempted to live my life in the manner of Jesus the more I felt my heart literally change. I felt a strength and assurance in the truth that I had never had before. The more I lived in a manner that pleased God, my intellectual desire to understand him subsided. It was replaced with a God given confidence in the truth of the universe. What I can see and understand is no longer the barometer which determines what is and isn't real. I still love science. But I fully believe that it will only show us how complex and unbelievable this creation is. The further science takes us the more I'm in awe of him.
Salvation through Jesus Christ became real. My heart, over time, was convicted and convinced of the truth in his message. He was a modest and humble teacher and through his perfect life and murder comes the salvation for all of creation. God wants us to recognize this simple truth and accept it.
When that happens your world view changes. Your perspective on life and what it means to be a human being on this planet, changes. You realize that your life isn't about you. it's not about what we want. If we are the creation and the Creator wants relationship with us and has a perfect, divine plan for us, for eternity, why wouldn't we want to go along with Him?
So. That's my take on your Jesus/New Testament why question.
Like I said, I'm not interesting it just having to respond to a long list of single passages. But I'd be happy to talk about any of them.
Let me know what you'd like to discuss next..
Best dude,
No comments:
Post a Comment