Round 7

Q:
Well we were talking about faith stuff, can't be tested. Well now is my real stuff that logic can test.

Genesis 1
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* Day 1- Heavens and earth are created. "Let there be light." Day and Night.
* Day 2 - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
* Day 3 - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is made.
* Day 4 - Sun, moon, stars are made.
* Day 5 - Sea life and birds are made.
* Day 6 - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and female) are made.
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1. Light was created. And then the sun and stars are made AFTER light was created.

This proves the Bible didn't know that light came from the sun, a star. Proves God, the all-knowing, didn't know that.

2. Vegetation was made before the sun appeared.

This proves the Bible doesn't know anything about photosynthesis, which is a fact.

3. Waters appeared first, and then land appeared.

This means the Earth started as a big ball of water floating in space, then land appeared from the inside, which doesn't make much sense.

4. It talks as if the Earth was the only thing around, as if there is no outer space, as if the Earth was the center of the universe. Those are in fact, wrong.

5. It never mentions the planets, obviously because the Bible authors didn't know planets exist, from their low technology at the time.

Dinosaurs were also never mentioned to be created, that they don't exist, which is in fact wrong, proven by the fossils. The authors, again, didn't know, therefore couldn't make up in their "story."

Genesis 2
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Heaven and earth were created. There was no plant yet on earth, no rain yet, and no man. But, a mist rose watering the surface of the ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Finally, God made Eve.
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1. (I copied this off some comment I saw) why would God make man out of some kind of amazing magic clay when he could've just created him instantly from nothing, if he'd wanted to? seems like an obvious creation myth to me. the kind of thing an uneducated sheep-herder might come up with.

2. It says there was no plant yet, then God created man? Didn't Genesis 1 say on day 3 vegetation is made, then on day 6 he created man? There, you see the contradiction.

What a mistake. The stories of Genesis 1 and 2 don't go together. This proves that at least one of them is wrong. The word of God is WRONG.

Ok that's enough Bible flaw for today. I look forward to your reply.


A:
HeyHey,

Ok! The Bible. Here we go.

First, before we tackle you statements regarding the creation poem in Genesis, and try to apply human logic and reasoning to it, we should understand exactly what the Bible is, and how to look at it.

The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, over approximately 1600 years. (i'll say this, given those facts, it's a miracle that The Bible even exists, let alone available to all. Please look into the history of the book.)

When reading The Bible it's absolutely necessary to put into context the author, the culture of people the books were being written to, and the socio-politial-religious climate that they were written in to. Does that make sense to you? If we don't know those factors, then we're taking it out of context and will be missing out on the core truth that The Bible delivers. Do I believe that The Bible is the word and truth of God? Yes. Do I read it word for word and interpret it's meaning literally within this period in time (2010) on this planet? No. The Bible is both literal and allegorical at the same time.

Now the creation poem. This is my interpretation of the first chapter in the book of Genesis. It's an account of the creation of all things, written to and for a people that hadn't a home and had been nomadic in nature. The were a basic people and technologically devoid. There concept of what is and isn't possible is vastly different than ours. This poem was written in a basic language which conveys God's truth about him being the source point for creation. If we look at it literally and read it word for word as simple words on a page and expect them to make sense out of the gate, then we're reading with a reductionist viewpoint and don't allow the Truth to come from the pages. Now for the creation poem itself.

Day 1.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:1-5

- Before the big bang creation event, nothing of our universe existed, not even time or space. It truly was in the beginning that God existed and caused the universe to explode out of nothing. One of the laws of physics is the law of causality which, when paraphrased, says an effect can not be part of it's cause. Translation - nothing cannot produce something anyway you look at it unless acted upon by an outside force - in this case God. Space, time, matter, and energy spread out like a curtain at God's command. Why didn't the universe collapse immediately back upon itself due to the immense affects of gravity as physics tells us it could have? Obviously there was enough force to overcome gravity, but this would just as likely have resulted in no matter heavier than hydrogen ever forming in the universe. Something out of nothing? Not possible, outside of God. Genesis 1:2 tells us it is because the Spirit of God was hovering over creation and He chose to overcome the laws of physics which He set in motion by perfectly balancing the big bang event. Again, he is woven into the fabric of this universe. In the big bang model of creation it is expected that photons would have been the first recognizable particles of matter to form. A photon is a particle of light. Imagine that! Many billions of years pass with stars forming and collecting into swirling galaxies. The newly forming sun condenses until the nuclear furnace ignites, light fills the solar system. He separated light from dark. Day one.- +15 billion to 5 billion years ago. I'll also add that separating light from dark, I believe, also speaks to the fact that no darkness is in God. He is light, He is good, He is love. He separated the light from the dark, therefore separating good and evil. Also in the poem it refrains, 'evening and morning' not morning then evening. I believe that this also speaks to man coming out of the 'darkness' that is sin, and into the 'light'. The goodness and acceptance of God.

Day 2
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:6-8

- God molded the planets of our solar system out of the elements of the cosmos - the leftovers of the gas cloud that formed our sun. This swirling cloud clumped and condensed into the individual planets. Day 2 expresses the work of God in forming and shaping one of these. The core of the gaseous ball that was to become the earth begins to cool until it solidifies. This distinctly separates the waters of the atmosphere from the waters of the earth - 5 billion to 4 billion years ago.

Day 3
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. Gen 1:9-13

- The earth continues to cool. steam begins to rise up out of the volcanic rock and forms a shallow sea(s) over the earth. The dry ground is raised up out of the ocean, due to plate movement and volcanic activity. A heavy cloud cover envelops the earth. Life appears in the fossil records of the very earliest rocks that formed. Primitive fauna can be found.- 4 billion to 1.5 billion years ago.

Day 4
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Gen 1:14-19

- A casual reading of Genesis suggests that the Sun, Moon and stars were made on day four. Taking all of scripture into account we see that these existed long before. What we can see is that scripture records creation from the perspective of an earth bound observer. This observer would see the earth was enveloped in a heavy cloud of volcanic ash, steam and carbon dioxide. The light of the sun was visible but not the sun until this time as the cloud cover begins to clear. As the volcanic ash settles the single celled life forms in the ocean, including blue-green algae are at work cleansing the atmosphere until it is rich in oxygen, making air-breathing life possible. So yes, it was day 4 that the sun/moon/stars were a visible part of of life on this planet. - 1.5 billion to 700 million years ago.

Day 5

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:20-23

- During day five we see the filling of the seas and the skies. About 570 million years ago the single biggest period of creation takes place. Today we know this as the Cambrian explosion. Creatures with hard-shelled bodies like trilobites and shellfish were created, creatures with skeletons such as fish spread throughout the ocean depths. Soon after, the Earth sees the first creatures appearing on land, apparently brought forth by the sea: amphibians, reptiles, and insects. Another great explosion of life begins 225 million years ago as dinosaurs appear and they dominate for 160 million years. Note that the KJV translates the Hebrew 'tanniyn' as whale . The translation used in the NIV is 'creature' but it also means a marine or land monster i.e. a sea serpent or dragon . The NASB translates it sea monster as does the RSV and Darby versions. Young's Literal translation translates it simply as monster . Bet they never told you that in Sunday School or science class.

NOTE: The KJV uses dragon many times in the Old Testament. The dragons are not dinosaurs, as they were extinct millions of years before man was created. The dragons are probably crocodiles with an occasional hippopotamus, but they are not dinosaurs. The same Hebrew word is translated dragon and whale but Genesis 1:21 calls dinosaurs 'gadowl tanniyn' or great monster. The only other place in scripture where this word combination is used is in Ezekiel 29:3, where in Ezekiel's prophesy great monster refers to Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Late in this day birds begin to fill the skies above the heads of the dinosaurs. - 700 million to 65 million years ago.

Day 6

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:24-31

- Day six begins as the dinosaurs become extinct. 65 million years ago mammals begin to rule the earth with the appearance of the grazing animals and wild beasts. True Man appears last with the creation of Adam and Eve. - 65 million to about 10,000 years ago.

What about prehistoric man? I believe they are included with the beasts of the earth just as monkeys and apes are beasts. No matter how intelligent they may or may not have been, there is no evidence that they were created in the image of God. There is no evidence that they had a spirit. The spirit is that part of man that acknowledges the Creator and longs for communion with Him. The Spirit can be suppressed but the result is restlessness and a lack of fulfillment.

Day 7

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3

- We are now in day seven - the day of rest. Nothing new has been created since man appeared (More on this later).

The young-earth creationists say the 7 days are literal 24-hour days. The facts of the universe say they have interpreted scripture incorrectly. By realizing the days are long periods of time and establishing an earth bound point of view you can see that science and the Bible tell the same story in complete agreement.

This is my interpretation and understanding of the first chapter(s) of Genesis. People looking for literal and exact truth in The Bible will find themselves frustrated. They won't find a explanation laid out for them in a manner that our human brains can understand. The creation of this universe is way too complicated to be detailed in a single chapter of a book in The Bible. Especially to near-eastern Jews 3000 years ago. God spoke through Moses using allegory and plain words to explain a concept that was far beyond them to understand. You see, man has been asking the same questions since our creation. The same questions your asking. They don't have the benefit/detriment to have been born into a western culture where science/technology make things 'seem' much more confusing.

Does one's viewpoint on the creation poem have any effect on the God message of The Bible? No. We can debate all day on the how's of creation. 6 days compared to the billions of years science tells us this rock has been around. I'm in the science camp, but that doesn't change the core message of the first chapter of Genesis. God created.

On to Genesis 2

1. Again, you're reading the chapter literally. Please take into account the people that that this was written. I believe the process by which God created us was far more complex and intricate than just piling dust together and breathing into it. I believe that is written to give the reader a statement of faith, 'we are created in his own image' in basic and straight forward language. Would it be prudent for God to inform them about the complexities of DNA and cellular mitosis as it relates to the inner workings of human form? It might satisfy modern day man on an intellectual level, but this book was written thousands of years ago, and if God revealed the 'how' of creation the concept would be lost. Do you understand what I mean by this?

2. The plant/man debate. If reading Genesis literally, then yes, there is a contradiction. But the question also stems from the wrong assumption that the second chapter of Genesis is just a different account of creation to that in chapter 1. It should be evident that chapter 2 is not just 'another' account of creation because chapter 2 says nothing about the creation of the heavens and the earth, the atmosphere, the seas, the land, the sun, the stars, the moon, the sea creatures, etc. Chapter 2 mentions only things directly relevant to the creation of Adam and Eve and their life in the garden God prepared specially for them. Chapter 1 may be understood as creation from God's perspective; it is 'the big picture', an overview of the whole. Chapter 2 views the more important aspects from man's perspective. Of course chapter 1 and 2 don't go together. They're different accounts. The first, the story of initial creation, while the second is specific to the creation of man.

If I wanted to get specific though I can say that Genesis 2:4-5 is merely a statement. That before man, God created the heavens and the earth. It does not state that man was made before the plants and animals. It does not contradict the creation poem. It does not go on to state that after man, God continued on to create flora/fauna. We were the final creation. Based on the nature of your question I can see that you're making the assumption that it's saying man was made into a world devoid of life. That's not the case.

I'm sorry, but the 'mistake' you're pointing out isn't that in the least bit. It's not a second account. It's a more in depth account of the actual creation of man. Two different things.

I admit that if one pulls single verses out of The Bible and compares them against each other, outside of historical and social context, then contradictions will arise. That is not a flaw of The Bible but one of the reader. But if one reads The Bible properly then those contradictions disappear.

That's my take brother. Again, we can't approach God and expect to understand him in his entirety using human logic and reasoning alone. The heart/faith is integral to having a full and real relationship with the Lord. I have a rock solid faith in the existence of God from first hand experiences I've had in my own life. That faith leads to truth. Truth to knowledge. Knowledge to wisdom. God wants us to have his wisdom. He wants us to know and affirm his truth. And his truth is in those pages. He's our father and wants us to know it.

Take care dude...
Talk later.